Autox?

[81280ZX]

In your opinions, what is the best vehicle for autocross? I am building an 89 240sx but am wondering what others think and what's the best set-up for mine?

[sweetdee]

PM Mcarp, he does a lot of Autox's around town and hes a Miata owner. Super nice and knowledgable guy

[81280ZX]

Awesome:) I love me some Miata Autox, They are so sweet on the track, I got to run 85rx-7gsl-se's dad's Miata. It is running the BEGi Turbo kit and has a set of Kosei K-1's with some super grippy Direzzas on it. It was so awesome to drive.

[shifty35]

Really, depends on who you ask and what you're into.

FF? Probably a Mini Cooper is most competitive in respective classes.

FR? Miata is the cheap, low powered option, S2000 and Corvette are the competitive "more expensive" choices.

Or you can just run whatever you like to drive, and have a blast without worrying about "being competitive" or winning.

[Mitch Detailed]

a 3rd gen prelude can be quite the sleeper on the track. 4ws is pretty awesome.

[85rx-7gsl-se]

I think the new Fiat 500 Abarth could be quite a contender depending on its classing...Could be the new Mini Cooper if the SCCA doesnt learn from the past classing errors. RX-8 is great for B-Stock and will be interesting to see how it does in the new C-Stock.

[shifty35]

I think the new Fiat 500 Abarth could be quite a contender depending on its classing...Could be the new Mini Cooper if the SCCA doesnt learn from the past classing errors. RX-8 is great for B-Stock and will be interesting to see how it does in the new C-Stock.

Saw that car on Top Gear, apparently it's pretty hard to get right now, at least in Europe... super long waiting lists.

But very cool little car :D

[85rx-7gsl-se]

Well we arent getting the Top Of The Line 500 Abarth SS just the normal Abarth 500 ~135hp.

[Manson]

is there any autox events around here?

[85rx-7gsl-se]

They run at NSS

[Mitch Detailed]

Well we arent getting the Top Of The Line 500 Abarth SS just the normal Abarth 500 ~135hp.

lol it's okay. i dont know anything about these cars. but based on what i remember from the vid, ones 135hp and the other is 160 or 170???

both are turbocharged, so the bigger question is what's their r/s ratio and valvetrain geometry to get a decent figure on the tq curve and can bigger numbers be pulled from these cars. i know nothing about fiats, i'm just going by mechanical engineering.

[Wheelman13]

To answer your question somewhat literally, below is a list of cars that finished semi-respectably at nationals. This only applies to cars fully prepared for the class in which they were running. If you do what you want to your car and then just run whichever class you happen to land in YMMV.

Stock Class ringers:

HS: Cooper (non-S)/ Mazda 3
GS: Cooper S
FS: Mustang Shelby thingy
ES: '93+ SW20 MR2 (non turbo)/ miata "R" / 944
DS: ITR / Cobalt SS / Mazda Spd 3 / BMW 330ci / IS300
CS (Also CS next year): Solstice/new MX-5
BS (CS next year): RX-8/'93+ MR2 Turbo/350Z
AS (BS next year): S2000 (any year, but ++ for CR)/C4 Vette
SS (AS next year): Lotus Elise/911 GT3/C5/C6 Vette

Street Touring: '89 Civic Si...end of story

STS: CRX / Miata

blah blah blah random-ass prepared and other street tire classes.

and

SM (place where most highly modded street cars would probably end up for one reason or another.

- EVO/M3/ and.......wait for it.......240SX!!!! a few people have actually done some damage with a 240 in this class nationally in the past couple of years.

SSM (SM with only 2 seats):

-FD, end of story....unless you can swing a 430 Scuderia like the 3rd place finisher this year at nationals.


So, for best absolute results you would drop quite a bit of coin to prep for SM. Google G-Fab Racing (2x top 10 places at nationals in a 240) and do whatever it is they've done.

Otherwise, you are looking at trying to find a way to beat a Cooper S in G-Stock with whatever tires you can fit on the skinny stock rims with no engine mods and only some adjustable shocks and a front sway bar; or you could take your chances against the AWD/flyweight crowd in some of the ST classes. I'm not saying you couldn't be locally competitive, but again, I sort of took this response to the extreme.

[MCarp22]

SM is for weenies, try XP:

http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z77/sdaidoji/AutoX%2020SEP09/DSC06221.jpg

Jim's car came in 3rd place at nationals this year.

[Wheelman13]

I usually end up cross-eyed after about 10 minutes of looking through the prepared-class rules. :)

[shifty35]

XP is pretty much no-holds barred... engine / trans / suspension is unlimited, doesn't have to be from the same make. Lexan windows allowed. Pretty wild & competitive class.

[85rx-7gsl-se]

Wheelman you do know the Cooper S is no longer G stock now. Its D Stock for 2010.

[shifty35]

Wheelman you do know the Cooper S is no longer G stock now. Its D Stock for 2010.

And it's about damn time, GS / HS were some seriously jacked classes...

[85rx-7gsl-se]

I know...Now people wonder what the new "it" car is for the class...Maybe the Genesis Coupe?

[Wheelman13]

True, my oversight, I just know that the stupid PAX doesn't change that much so I will still be getting my ass handed to me by a particular red cooper S that runs with the ETR region. (Of course, it takes a really good day for me to beat that guy in raw time, nevermind PAX.)

[85rx-7gsl-se]

I hate PAX.

[Wheelman13]

Yeah, I've sort of come to terms with it. I ended up running the local "pro" class which is pax-based this past season. I resorted to that because I didn't have much competition in BS and I was pulling down top 10 PAX finishes with a moderate frequency. The kicker is that, like nationals, they only count your first three runs in "Pro" in ETR versus counting all 5-7 runs in the normal open classes, so you face a much steeper learning curve.

[85rx-7gsl-se]

See we dont have a pro class here in Midsouth. I run SSM with a turbo II swapped FB so my weight limits are set the same as a FD. Plus the PAX is assuming a FD with 350+hp on 315wide hoosiers and I am on 205/55-14 V710s.

[Wheelman13]

I feel your pain. The MR2 Turbo is competitive in BS (soon to be CS) as long as it's a '93+ (which gives LSD tranny & 15" wheels) slick-top or sunroof car with no power options...which is basically a frigging unicorn...(I've seen 1 in person, ever).

The 15" wheels are the key though, you can get 275 series V710s or hoohoos on the rear then, which basically makes it a go-kart. The largest tire either company makes for a 14" is 225, so I've got 205/225 stagger instead of a 225/275 and then about 200 extra pounds from T-Top and power junk.

Oh well, if I was really worried about doing national stuff I'd have bought an RX-8 or S2K instead of an NSX and spent the change on tires and Motons.

[shifty35]

I feel your pain. The MR2 Turbo is competitive in BS (soon to be CS) as long as it's a '93+ (which gives LSD tranny & 15" wheels) slick-top or sunroof car with no power options...which is basically a frigging unicorn...(I've seen 1 in person, ever).

The 15" wheels are the key though, you can get 275 series V710s or hoohoos on the rear then, which basically makes it a go-kart. The largest tire either company makes for a 14" is 225, so I've got 205/225 stagger instead of a 225/275 and then about 200 extra pounds from T-Top and power junk.

Oh well, if I was really worried about doing national stuff I'd have bought an RX-8 or S2K instead of an NSX and spent the change on tires and Motons.

It's sad, Hoosier makes a 255 for 13", but 225 is the best they can do on 14".

Too bad you can't drop down to a 13".

S2K in STR next year sounds like some serious fun...

[85rx-7gsl-se]

Yeah...We have a local in a 91 Turbo and he is running BSP now so he has some wheel options.

[Wheelman13]

You mean ASP? NA MR2's are in CSP and the Turbo gets thrown straight in the deep end even though the 350Z and RX-8 get the BSP nod.

I thought about going that direction, but it's more money than I want to spend to still get flogged by Z06s.

[85rx-7gsl-se]

Yeah I meant ASP. Here is his new wheel and tire setup.

http://www.memphisracing.com/vb/showthread.php?t=54627

[81280ZX]

I'm trying to figure out what I want to do to my 240 to just have fun out auto-crossing.

[Wheelman13]

Although you can have a good deal of fun re-learning your car without even touching it by running events, there are some modifications that are almost inevitable. I would encourage you to drive your car as-is at a few events to get a baseline, and then use that information to make changes.

that said, typically folks end up with (in order of how much difference the mod will make):

-lots of seat time...ok, not a mod, but your times will improve the most with just more practice. Once you are down to trying to shave tenths vs. full/half seconds, then move to the next thing in this list.

-good tires (dunlop star specs, etc. if you want to arrive & drive, or some R888, V710, etc if you want to become addicted to race tires and don't mind swapping them on and off at the events).

-get a race shop that knows something to do an alignment on it for autocross.

-Camber bolts and/or plates (kind of goes along with the alignment part)

-Good sway bar(s) (dunno what's suggested for the rear of a 240, some run without)

-decent shocks (don't have to be adjustable, but some adjustment can come in handy Koni Yellows are good on a budget).

[81280ZX]

^ Thanks I appreciate the advice.... I know for a fact I'm gonna work on suspension and tires. I am probably gonna go with the v710 cause that is what my roommate uses and they seem to work great, I don't mind changing tires out at an event. I also plan to slowly work on engine mods and see where I get on that.

[Wheelman13]

Yup, if you're going to do a DOT slick for the first time, the V710 is the way to go IMO. The Hoosiers are allegedly a little stickier, but V710s last a lot longer. The last national champion from my region (Robert Carpenter in an ES MR2) ran V710s, so if they are lacking, it's not by much. Either way the difference vs. a street tire is absurd, you have to completely recalibrate your brain for the speed at which you can now change direction.

I wore through a set in '08 but that included 11 regional events, a couple of Porsche club events, an all day school, and a little talledega track day. If I'd known better, I could have flipped them on the rims (so the inside edge of the tire becomes the outside edge) and probably gotten several more events out of them as well.

As far as stuff you do to the car, tires and alignment will make the most immediately noticeable difference.

[Herbert]

81280zx - how much have you auto-x'd? If it is not much stick with street tires till the tires cannot keep up with your skills. R-comps hide ALOT of mistakes, and learned bad habits are hard to unlearn.

GrassRoots Motorsports Magazine just did a article on how to pick an auto-x car that is motivation driven not marque' driven - I like BMWs but, but that is not what was really competetive this year.

[85rx-7gsl-se]

He has run a time or two. He was thinking of running different tires so he doesnt kill his street tires which is why I run two sets (Though I have about a years worth of events spread out over a couple years under my belt). I went with some R compounds since my 195/60-14s werent dealing well with 200+whp and I would rather run a set of used 710s so I dont kill new street tires.

[Cowden86]

SM is for weenies, try XP:

http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z77/sdaidoji/AutoX%2020SEP09/DSC06221.jpg

Jim's car came in 3rd place at nationals this year.

Reminds me, I need to call Jason and see when we're working on the S2000 this weekend...

[fridaynightheat]

when does the season start next year?

[shifty35]

Usually in March / April

Test and tune is normally first event.

[fridaynightheat]

cool I hope that i can get some good tires if i get the car I'm looking at I'm going to need good tires and a killer suspension.

[SBrian2]

Stock Class ringers:

SS (AS next year): Lotus Elise/911 GT3/C5/C6 Vette
Only one of those cars go to AS next year, the non-Z06 C5. All the others stay in SS. AS could be C5 Z51, Cayman S, or FD RX-7

I hate PAX.
I love PAX! It is the only way to measure driver performance against people who are not in your class.

Yup, if you're going to do a DOT slick for the first time, the V710 is the way to go IMO. The Hoosiers are allegedly a little stickier, but V710s last a lot longer. The last national champion from my region (Robert Carpenter in an ES MR2) ran V710s, so if they are lacking, it's not by much. Either way the difference vs. a street tire is absurd, you have to completely recalibrate your brain for the speed at which you can now change direction.
V710 is the best bang for the buck. Robert switched to Hoosiers right after I beat him on them at the '07 National Championships and has been on them ever since. The Hoosiers are definitely faster, but wear quicker and cost more. Warning: once you go R compound, there is no going back. I tried driving my turbo Miata at one event last year on Azenis and had a very frustrating day. You can't fathom the grip level you have if you have never been on them.

[85rx-7gsl-se]

Remember Brian thats if you car is built to class standards. For many SM/SSM drivers (the ones who never intended to auto-x and found themselves stuck here like me) our cars are no wear nearly as prepared as a national level SM/SSM car and therefore unless we spend alot of cash we will not be competitive in pax against a similarly skilled driver in a stock class car.

[Wheelman13]

V710 is the best bang for the buck. Robert switched to Hoosiers right after I beat him on them at the '07 National Championships and has been on them ever since.

Ah ok, he was still running the '710s locally up to when he sold the MR2. I haven't been to the 'Tour events or anything where they get really serious, so I'd imagine he probably broke the hoosiers out for that type of thing.

[shifty35]

Remember Brian thats if you car is built to class standards. For many SM/SSM drivers (the ones who never intended to auto-x and found themselves stuck here like me) our cars are no wear nearly as prepared as a national level SM/SSM car and therefore unless we spend alot of cash we will not be competitive in pax against a similarly skilled driver in a stock class car.

That's true for any car that's in a class other than stock.

But it's true, it's not called $M for no reason... :D

[85rx-7gsl-se]

Exactely. I mean I am running a 25 year old chassis with drop springs, tokico struts, and some 205/55-14 used V710s with about 250whp and a 2600lb weight. Not really an SM quality build lol.

[Wheelman13]

SM has kinda been fun to watch in ETR mainly because we don't have anyone here with a fully-prepped car. So it's a bunch of guys that either fell into the class or tweaked a couple of things on their street builds to fit in the class and it's occasionally some pretty close racing (depending on who shows up).

The ETR (and TR from what I gather) PAX classes are death though because there are so-damn-many nationally competitive guys. Hell ETR has I think 3 guys that are also EVO instructors, and I know enough TR drivers by reputation to know it's the same there.

(that said, I intend on running a few TR events this coming season for the purposes of seat time, so I'll find out first hand).

[85rx-7gsl-se]

Well I know here our SSM is small and next year will likely be me, a GT35r-ed FD on 275 Hoosiers, and maybe a S/C Miata. But when we get paxed we are all killed. Only SM/SSM car that does well is Dan Smythe in his EVO.

[silver350tn]

I might have to start running the miata against you guys

[85rx-7gsl-se]

Have fun in SSM then Chris...You can run against the National Champ Dan Chadwick in his fully prepped FD on 315 Hoosiers :D

[shifty35]

We have a street tire PAX in TR :P

[85rx-7gsl-se]

Yeah I keep forgetting..>We only run real classes over here :p

[usafdarkhorse]

I'd really like to start running some Autocross events. I didn't have the financial clout for awhile to keep buying tires, but I'd like to start here soon.

Maybe you can take me under your wing Richard. Let me run the NSX for old times' sake. ;)

[SBrian2]

Have fun in SSM then Chris...You can run against the National Champ Dan Chadwick in his fully prepped FD on 315 Hoosiers :D

And me too since I will be co-driving with Dan full time this year. ;)

[fridaynightheat]

what is the scca web site for nashville super speedway?

[shifty35]

http://www.trscca.org

[shifty35]

And me too since I will be co-driving with Dan full time this year. ;)

Keep those apex seals where they belong this year! ;)

[85rx-7gsl-se]

You are a luck guy Brian.

[fridaynightheat]

thanks man

[Wheelman13]

I'd really like to start running some Autocross events. I didn't have the financial clout for awhile to keep buying tires, but I'd like to start here soon.

Maybe you can take me under your wing Richard. Let me run the NSX for old times' sake. ;)

Tell you what, you give FXMD a call and order a KW V3 setup for it, and you are welcome to co-drive :).

Honestly, if you are running even pretty aggressive street tires, you really will not go through them very quickly. It's only once you get hooked on the racers' crack that are R-compound tires that it gets expensive.

You are always welcome to ride along if you just want to see what's up, or pick up a pointer or two. I am no seasoned pro or EVO instructor, but I don't suck.

[silver350tn]

I wanna hitch a ride with someone next time around . Never done this type of racing , not sure how it works, are points deducted for being sideways?

[MCarp22]

are points deducted for being sideways?

There are no judges but the lap timer. Penalties are assessed for damaging the course.

[85rx-7gsl-se]

Though drifting at auto-x events is generally frowned upon...A little oversteer is ok but trying to slide all the time puts the course workers in danger.

[usafdarkhorse]

Tell you what, you give FXMD a call and order a KW V3 setup for it, and you are welcome to co-drive :).

Honestly, if you are running even pretty aggressive street tires, you really will not go through them very quickly. It's only once you get hooked on the racers' crack that are R-compound tires that it gets expensive.

You are always welcome to ride along if you just want to see what's up, or pick up a pointer or two. I am no seasoned pro or EVO instructor, but I don't suck.

I may try to get the Z in the mix of one of these local events soon. Tony used to autocross the car back in the day, so some people have come up to me saying they had seen the car before. I'd run low low boost.

[Wheelman13]

I may try to get the Z in the mix of one of these local events soon. Tony used to autocross the car back in the day, so some people have come up to me saying they had seen the car before. I'd run low low boost.

Yup, he ran it a couple of seasons ago at William Blount. He was mostly sideways :). Not-stretched rear tires would help that.

[usafdarkhorse]

Yup, he ran it a couple of seasons ago at William Blount. He was mostly sideways :). Not-stretched rear tires would help that.

Getting 16" wheels would help me on the tire side.

He thought it would be fun one day to run 10psi at William Blount, said he was completely sideways around most of the turns and still managed to best the "good time" ( I'm not sure what that is ) by about 3 seconds. So I'd say leaving it where it is right now boost-wise would be pretty good, and then better tires from better sized wheels would help.

Probably can't get wheels for a year or so. Someone throw me out some good 5x114.3 low low offset wheel selections.

[chemwarrior]

I know...Now people wonder what the new "it" car is for the class...Maybe the Genesis Coupe?

That's what I'm hoping for. :D

[shifty35]

That's what I'm hoping for. :D

In that case, you got the wrong color... everyone knows red is faster! :razz:

[chemwarrior]

In that case, you got the wrong color... everyone knows red is faster! :razz:

That's why I got a slower color; to give other people a chance. :)

[beallen25]

I have never done autocross, I am very interested in starting it though see as how I live like 6 miles from Nashville super speedway. I been looking into it and I am afraid that with my WRX I will really be sh*t up a creek as far as my class goes so it would be purely for the fun of it. Planning on starting this next season, it'll be embarassing for awhile.

[chemwarrior]

I have never done autocross, I am very interested in starting it though see as how I live like 6 miles from Nashville super speedway. I been looking into it and I am afraid that with my WRX I will really be sh*t up a creek as far as my class goes so it would be purely for the fun of it. Planning on starting this next season, it'll be embarassing for awhile.

We all have to start somewhere. I've seen plenty of WRXs out there as well. The whole point is to have fun and improve each time you do it. If I lived that close I would be going every single time.

[beallen25]

what is a good/cheap/street/track tire I can get for my stock 16's?

[85rx-7gsl-se]

I would recommend something along the lines of a Z1 Star Spec/Falken Azenis RT615 if you want something that has 200 treadwear rating yet bites good. Personal I like the Z1 star specs the best for a non-R compound tire.

[Herbert]

Just fyi for those that don't get GRM, Kumho Ecsta XS has won twice now for street tire shootouts in GRM.

These results for the artical in Feb GRM, was spawned be the ever popular "R-compound tires are always about 2 seconds faster than street tires" therory. (Tried a pdf format, but the thumbnail would not open)

[chemwarrior]

I thought the Star Specs won the last comparo in GRM. I know they won in a comparo that I think was in Car & Driver. I used Star Specs while autocrossing and loved them.

[1126eclipse]

I wouldnt mind giving autox a shot in the Eclipse if i still have it when the time comes. What gears do you normally use running in it though? Being i dont have a 4th yet.

[shifty35]

I wouldnt mind giving autox a shot in the Eclipse if i still have it when the time comes. What gears do you normally use running in it though? Being i dont have a 4th yet.

Depending on how much power you have and the course design, you may be lucky to get out of 2nd... you'll never use 4th in autox.

[chemwarrior]

^^^^^^^^
Exactly! I never got to third gear and only a couple times did I bounce off the rev limiter in second.

[beallen25]

can I get some examples of what cars you guys are running in autocross?

[chemwarrior]

The beauty of autocrossing is that you can bring any car you want. I've seen everything from Civics to Vettes to Mustangs to Evos to whatever... It's a safe environment ran by good people. Look at this website to get further information. http://www.trscca.org/

[1126eclipse]

Ok good info. Means if i get some tires and finish my suspension setup i wouldnt mind heading out.

[chemwarrior]

Good tires are a must.

[shifty35]

I ran my Civic on some 185 all seasons two years back - I had a blast still. An LSD would have been nice, lol!

[chemwarrior]

My first autocross was on all-season tires but this was in my Evo. Needless to say I didn't have much traction. I came back the next session with the Star Specs and an upgraded rear swaybar and did much better. I started winning shortly after that. I can't wait to see what the Genesis Coupe is going to do.

[Slikk]

some of y'all need to stop making excuses and just come out and run the event. Trust me no matter what you are running it will be fun and you will get addicted. it doesn't matter If you are running a $200 beater, a beefed up muscle car of some high end highly modded machine.

I started with my stock scion ... yeah a scion. body roll like a Mof**r and i have learned how to better handle the car and have made slight mods to make the car handle better.

the only MUST for the event is:
Good attitude:
Safe vehicle:
Drivers licence
$35

[85rx-7gsl-se]

He has a point...I mean we arent the most competitive region down here at Mid South be we had a veteran driver place in the top 3rd of the field in a stock Neon he bought for $600 a few days before.

[WynnS123]

I can't wait to see what the Genesis Coupe is going to do.

Did you sell the Evo?

[chemwarrior]

Did you sell the Evo?

What's up Wynn? Yes I traded the Evo for the GC.